## Music players

The war between wetware and hardware.
gnome
Posts: 24247
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL

### Re: Music players

sparks wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:47 pm
I've read that the average movie on DVD runs 4GB. I've got a mix of DVD and Blu ray, I presume the Blu rays consume even more space. The current library is at about 1000 titles. And I refuse to fuck the quality via some goofball compression scheme.

So, 4TB minimum. 8TB would probably be sufficient. But, room to grow is necessary. And Rob, with two drive failures in just 3 years, what brand of drives are you using? Holy shit, that seems excessive.
4GB for a 480p movie? In MKV format those are coming in at under a gig. Blurays, now those can reach even 10GB or more.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

gnome
Posts: 24247
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL

### Re: Music players

Rob Lister wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:07 pm
gnome wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:06 pm
No kill like overkill?

I'm only just looking at upgrading to a single 8TB for my media drive.
I'll be a bit of a buttinsky and say if you are upgrading to a single 8tb, you're doing it way, way wrong. That is the quintessential putting all of your eggs into the proverbial basket; a basket that is already falling the minute you turn it on.

Raid, son.

I think sparks is overkill at raid 5 but it's his money.

You should at least consider raid 1. That means two 8tb drives acting in unison. Figure $400 with the appliance. I'm using a Western Digital Cloud 2x2tb I bought about 3 years ago. An 8tb would run you ... --breakautofuck-- About$500

Over those three years I've had two drive failures. Pop out the bad drive, pop in a new one. No muss, no fuss, and keeps your freezer free for food.
Encrypted cloud backup. $10/mo. Though that might bump up to the next price tier if I quadruple the drive space I'm using. "If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!" --Soldier, TF2 sparks Posts: 16681 Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 pm Location: Friar McWallclocks Bar -- Where time stands still while you lean over! ### Re: Music players Which is great as long as your interwebz connection is in working order. Now, when the Covid-19 really gets on a roll, you'll be shit out of luck for connectivity to your cloud stored stuff. Never trust to some other jerk what you can do for yourself. It's the only way to be sure. Interestingly enough, I had opportunity at work to work up several options for NAS appliances and drives vs capacity and cost. 5 drive bay appliance filled with 2TB drives running RAID 5 gives about 8TB working storage and that was more expensive than a 4 drive appliance filled with 4TB drives which when running RAID 5 gives about 12TB. (Somebody who knows what the hell they're talking about fix my maths regarding RAID 5 arrays please) Ended up ordering the Synology DS418 and 4 WD red pro 4TB drives. Backing up a 1TB server and about 20 500GB workstations. The thing that really makes me laugh in all this is, I didn't sign up to be the IT person. But that belongs in Pyrrhos 'Bad Day Of The Week' thread. You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think. gnome Posts: 24247 Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am Location: New Port Richey, FL ### Re: Music players I'd be a little more worried what happens if my house burns down. Of course, to be really rigorous I'd set up something like you suggest PLUS have the offsite cloud backup. "If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!" --Soldier, TF2 Rob Lister Posts: 22843 Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm Title: Incipient toppler Location: Swimming in Lake Ed ### Re: Music players Sparks scooped me. Fuck him. Read me too. gnome wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:50 pm Rob Lister wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:07 pm gnome wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:06 pm No kill like overkill? I'm only just looking at upgrading to a single 8TB for my media drive. I'll be a bit of a buttinsky and say if you are upgrading to a single 8tb, you're doing it way, way wrong. That is the quintessential putting all of your eggs into the proverbial basket; a basket that is already falling the minute you turn it on. Raid, son. I think sparks is overkill at raid 5 but it's his money. You should at least consider raid 1. That means two 8tb drives acting in unison. Figure$400 with the appliance. I'm using a Western Digital Cloud 2x2tb I bought about 3 years ago. An 8tb would run you ...

--breakautofuck--

About $500 Over those three years I've had two drive failures. Pop out the bad drive, pop in a new one. No muss, no fuss, and keeps your freezer free for food. Encrypted cloud backup.$10/mo. Though that might bump up to the next price tier if I quadruple the drive space I'm using.
You bring up a good point: offsite storage. Not only should you have a local back-up, you should have an off-site back-up as well. Now we ain't talking about protecting the nation's nuclear keys here, we're talking about backing up your mostly crappy ill-gotten booty, but it is fun to talk about.

3-2-1 Backup Strategy

Three copies - The original and two backups.

Two storage types - Separate drives meet that criteria, a file duplicated on the same drive does not. One could argue a raid is a single type, regardless of the number of physical drives.

One remote copy - One copy should be stored more remotely than any geographical disaster could impact

So you're paying $10/mo, that ain't bad. Pretty typical. But what are you getting for your money? How much data are you really backing up? Right now? Today? Backblaze, that marvelous company I wrote of earlier, charges$6/mo for unlimited backup of a single computer. If you have a 500TB drive in that computator, they'll keep it backed up for $6 a month. Mind you, that's under their personal plan, so it won't back up Network Attached Storage, but we'll get to that. And they can do that because Mr. Joe Average doesn't have 500TB. He's got 1 or 2, maybe. But get this: They're not keeping one copy of your data, they're keeping at least two and probably three. So they have to store your data just as safely as you should be storing your data. How do they do that and still make a profit? Mr. Average Joe doesn't know. But we do. 1. perceived value: Joe ain't using that much storage, comparatively, but that .5TB of porn is$10/mo important to him.
2. cheaper by the dozen: they don't pay retail for their drives, they buy them by the hundreds or thousands, mix and match, big and little, HDD and SSD, any source, all sources, etc.

Mr. Gnome, who we all know is smarter, wiser, and has far more porn than Mr. Average, is spending $120/yr to back up his data. Backblaze would charge him$72.

Lister thinks that money would be better spent (or additionally spent) on nice, new network appliance for Gnome. I think I paid $250 or so for my 2x2TB WD my cloud back in 2017(?). Bare in mind that WD was a financial compromise on my part. I wanted a 4-bay synology running freeNAS. Still, I got my money's worth. 1) A new toy I played with and configured and reconfigured and re-reconfigured for weeks and months ... but was up and running in thirty minutes. 2) Lives on my network so all computers can access it. 3) Creates my own personal cloud that I can access anywhere, anytime. Okay, not as safe as off-site backup, but safe enough. Backblaze would accomadate me under their B2 Cloud Storage plan, meant for tiny to huge businesses. Their price is currently: Backup:$0.005/gb/mo or $10 a month for my 2TB if my NAS was full. Probably$8 as I stand now.

Recover: $.05/gb or about$100 if I actually had to retrieve that data, which is pretty fuckoing unlikely and well worth the price if it happened.

What the fuck am I going on about?

Witness. Witness thinks a manual raid is a thing. I think he takes all the fun out of life.

sparks
Posts: 16681
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Friar McWallclocks Bar -- Where time stands still while you lean over!

### Re: Music players

I think you meant Gnome scooped you Rob.

Off site storage is a good, great and wonderful thing. But as you point out, it's not the first line of defense. I consider it a last resort because of the lack of ability to connect in an interwebz outage and then there's the human fuckery aspect. If you're not responsible for it yourself, someone else will fuck it up for you. Break in and steal all your goat porn and leave behind nothing but photos of cats and dogs living together! Good Gawd, the Humanity!!!
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

gnome
Posts: 24247
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL

### Re: Music players

One of the items that attracted me to my current backup solution is that its encryption is tied to a key that only I possess. As in literally, if I lost my key they'd have to tell me I was out of luck. So, unless they're flat out lying, in theory nobody can steal my data.

Right now I'm hovering around 5TB being backed up, which includes prior versions (does Backblaze cover that as well?) and on-demand file recovery.

In the unlikely event that there's a temporary internet outage AND a local malfunction at the same time, I can be patient--nothing I'm storing is time-sensitive. I don't know if they keep redundant backups, that's worth checking.

If there's some kind of massive permanent infrastructure breakdown, I have a feeling that I'll have bigger problems than making sure I can recover my copy of "Embrace of the Vampire" with Alyssa Milano. But even so if things start to head in that direction I suppose I can probably collect a couple of extra hard drives and make physical backups.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

Rob Lister
Posts: 22843
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed

### Re: Music players

sparks wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:51 pm
Off site storage is a good, great and wonderful thing. But as you point out, it's not the first line of defense.
Exactly. But on reading Gnomes response, it seems like he thinks I was recommending off-site storage when in fact I was trying to talk him out of that. At least as the first line of defense.

But how can I now go back and tell him of his fuckery? Not to mention his weird desire to keep full repetitive back-ups of static data ... and even weirdlier desire to apply quantum-level encryption to goat porn.

No. It would hurt his feelings. I'm just not about doing that.

So I'm just going to let it go. If he's happy paying Big Cloud Big Bucks to do what he should be doing himself--doing cheaper, better, and much more funnlier--who am I to complain.

Let's just keep this between us.

It's my fault. I didn't convey it well. I think it's the cancer.

gnome
Posts: 24247
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL

### Re: Music players

If it were just the Milano boobies I wouldn't care about the encryption or versions, but it also backs up my documents folder and saved game files--the ability to restore old versions of that data has proven quite valuable.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

Witness
Posts: 29182
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm

### Re: Music players

Rob Lister wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:03 am
Witness wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:29 pm
Buy two drives and if/when the one you use dies you'll just swap in the copy and buy a new one.
lol. you're describing a manual raid.
Any backup is a kind of RAID, if you want to see it so.

I draw your attention to the "real time" part, and to the fact that while the main drive churns on (and gets worn out) the copy remains unused and hopefully pristine. Real RAID configurations show a higher rate of simultaneous failure (read "unrecoverable").

But convince me: why is RAID better in a non-industrial (aka home) setting, apart from the pleasure of cool gadgetry and the comfort of swapping drives in a rack?

Rob Lister
Posts: 22843
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed

### Re: Music players

Witness wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:22 pm
Rob Lister wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:03 am
Witness wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:29 pm
Buy two drives and if/when the one you use dies you'll just swap in the copy and buy a new one.
lol. you're describing a manual raid.
Any backup is a kind of RAID, if you want to see it so.

I draw your attention to the "real time" part, and to the fact that while the main drive churns on (and gets worn out) the copy remains unused and hopefully pristine.
I'll give you that but I don't think the real costs associated with it is significant. With a typical annualized failure rate of <1%, your drive will become obsolete before it fails. You can take that risk with the cost of a drive, but maybe not with the cost of your data.
Real RAID configurations show a higher rate of simultaneous failure (read "unrecoverable").

And unreal raids show a much, much higher rate of neglect.

Ask ed. He has had no less than 26 drive failures since 20041. 'Back up your data,' we tell him. 'Please,' we beg. I once even put a cherry on top. But no. We even pitched in and bought him a 20TB Toshiba Red with Monster cables2 and all. He didn't listen. I bet one of his drives is failing right now. I bet another is in his freezer.3

So if you're good and responsible and smart and back up every thing that needs backing up as soon as its created, then cool, but you're the exception. Whereas a raid does this without fail, to the millisecond.

And besides, drives be cheap. And HDD's cheaper every moment. If you're that concerned you can go for a three drive configuration, like Sparks. You can separate the drives physically across different housings is you so pleased.

I also particularly like the idea of offloading that capability to a different appliance. It's always on, draws very little power, and doesn't depend on my server being up and running. My Computer could also double as my Roku, but I don't want it too. A NAS is tailored to the job of storage. Let it have it's own power supply, case and independence. Its own home. Make a dolly for it even.
But convince me: why is RAID better in a non-industrial (aka home) setting,...
Why the specificity? Goose/gander. Same arguments either way, I think.
... apart from the pleasure of cool gadgetry
Apart from!?

and the comfort of swapping drives in a rack?
and the knowledge that it is backed-up to the millisecond.

Besides, your manual raid will require a hell of a lot more swapping and plugging and yadaing than a REAL raid. That said, there is something very slick about swapping out a dead drive. It all just comes together. You smile as it clicks on the the green light glows. It just feels good.

And if none of that convinces you, then consider this: When you hear them coming for you, you can tuck your little 5lb NAS under your arm and run like hell. Try doing that with your server!

1 it might be slightly less.
2 That might be a lie
3 That's probably true

Rob Lister
Posts: 22843
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed

### Re: Music players

Since we're gedunkin' ...

Brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department.
Spoiler:
Earlier I said that the WD My Cloud was a financial compromise. My real desire was a slightly older version of this:

Lovely. Sleek, without being glossy. Small enough to tuck under your arm and run. Configurable to most RAID configurations. Runs PLEX (along with many other sever-level apps) directly so there's no need to keep that power-hungry server running 24/7. Fully capable of direct transcoding for at least two users, something my desktop server can just barely do for one. But transcoding is rarely necessary so it hasn't been a bother.
Synology DS918+ is designed for small and medium-sized businesses and IT enthusiasts. With a powerful built-in AES-NI hardware encryption engine, DS918+ provides exceptional encrypted file transmission. Also capable of transcoding up to two channels of H.265/H.264 4K videos at the same time, DS918+ is ideal for sharing and storing ultra-high definition media content.
https://www.synology.com/en-us/products/DS918+

I could have afforded the price of it but note that the unit comes without disks. I couldn't hide justify that expense from my wife.

I suppose if I bought it today I would fill two of the bays with my existing 2TB drives and the other two with what great deal is going on that day. I'm only 80% full on the existing byut I've honestly reconsidered some content in an effort to ration space. Shame on me. You can mix and match your drive sizes and makers. A downside, when pairing, is that the pair size is limited to the lower capacity of the two. But two 2's and two 8's is fine.

This is what you need, Gnome. I want to live vicariously through you. Don't listen to that technophobe Witness. He wears a wind-up \$6 Timex for god's sake. It has a plastic strap. You can barely read the time because he wore during one of his weekly cold-water showers and the crystal cheap plastic window (already scratched to hell) is all misty.

"It's fine, it tells the time, that's all I need, blah, blah." Sure, okay.

He takes great umbrage at those who snicker at has lack of technostyle. So do it behind his back.

A well-written essay on the Best NAS for PLEX
https://nascompares.com/best-plex-nas-of-2019/

P.S. Since you're in Florida:
Spoiler:

Witness
Posts: 29182
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm

### Re: Music players

Will I get expelled from the tribe if I don't worship the techno-fetish?

Rob Lister
Posts: 22843
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed

### Re: Music players

No. But we'll set up a program from you.
I want you to subscribe to the following youtube channel.

You must watch no fewer than 30 episodes.

Then you're going to build a water cooler for your SSD.

Witness
Posts: 29182
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm

### Re: Music players

Rob Lister wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:51 pm
Then you're going to build a water cooler for your SSD.
As it happens I just noticed that my external SSD keeps cool when the computer runs, but gets warm when I shut down and the USB still has power.

Rob Lister
Posts: 22843
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed

### Re: Music players

That seems like a fun puzzle.

gnome
Posts: 24247
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL

### Re: Music players

Not a hardware guy, but I'm keen to guess. I figure there's some kind of power pass through going to the USB, so that it can get power even when the box is off.

As to why the computer needs to be on in order to keep the device cool... is any part of the box's cooling system affecting the external SSD?

Or... is the power pass through unintentional, and when the box is off, the SSD is getting too much power?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2